FuelCellWorks NewsHighlights- February2002FuelCellWorks NewsHighlights- February2002

It is my pleasure to re-interview Robert Hockaday, founder of Energy Related Devices, Inc. and inventor of the Micro Fuel Cell(TM). More information on Mr. Hockaday and his Micro Fuel Cell can be found on the Energy Related Devices, Inc. website at http://www.energyrelatedevices.com/ or the Manhattan Scientifics Inc. website at http://www.mhtx.com.

ANDERSON: In the interview last November you stated that you expected to see commercialization of your MicroFuel Cell into consumer electronic products in 2 to 5 years. Has your estimate increased or decreased since then?

HOCKADAY: I don't think it has really changed. Our targets of hitting the cellular phone market first may have. We have been focusing niche markets such as military and remote power supplies. There is also a possibility of leapfrogging to 3G (third generation phones, i.e., image display and web capable, etc.), phones rather than target the typical cellular phones, where they need the higher energy and power performance with the color displays and always on modes.

ANDERSON: What problems/advances have you had/made that caused this change?

HOCKADAY: The expectations of the cellular phone makers exceeded what fuel cells could deliver with the early prototypes. They were expecting that micro fuel cells were going to be a plug-in replacement for existing batteries. For example, one of the requirements was for instant 100% power availability. Another was to function in roughly 20C bellow freezing to 45 C.

ANDERSON: Has the drop in Manhattan Scientifics share price severely hampered your effort to bring the MicroFuel Cell to market?

HOCKADAY: Yes. The ability to raise money is coupled to the MSI stock price.

ANDERSON: What technical hurdles do you believe are ahead for yourself and the micro fuel cell competitors, in order to reach commercialization?

HOCKADAY: I will name a few: Maintaining performance through the range of environmental conditions of temperature and humidity, achieving responsiveness along with efficient performance from the fuel cells for dynamic loads, and acceptance of the fuel ampoules by Department of Transportation.

ANDERSON: In the interview last November you stated that you believed that in the future we would start to see pieces of the puzzle of successful products brought together through cooperation and mergers between competitors. Have you seen any of this happening as of yet?

HOCKADAY: Yes! We are starting to see companies with pieces of the puzzle publicly display their pieces, and now we need to get them to assemble these pieces. Ube recently announced a new electrolyte membrane that is insensitive to methanol swelling and impressive power performance. The merger of H-Power and Plug Power is an example. DuPont and Mechanical Technologies working together is another.

ANDERSON: Where is the power level for your MicroFuel Cell product now, and how does this compare to the competitor's products?

HOCKADAY: We recently released information on our website that shows data on a direct methanol fuel cell running from 22 degrees C with a power density of 3 milliwatts/cm2, to 78 degrees C and 26 milliwatts/cm2. This is a sample of the power density and the sensitivity of direct methanol fuel cells to temperature. Our fuel cells running on hydrogen and air in the ambient conditions of Los Alamos are producing about 90 milliwatts/cm2. We have also been working on methanol and hydrogen ampoules.

ANDERSON: Where do you foresee your power level in the future?

HOCKADAY: For most of the small power devices with diffusion delivery of fuel and air, the thermal heat dissipation limit is about 100 milliwatts/cm2 because the fuel cell and surrounding case would get very hot when left in still air. So, we are in the power per unit area design regime that we want to be at. Increasing the efficiency while maintaining the power is the next hurdle.

ANDERSON: What are your thoughts on the power and size that MTI MicroFuel Cells Inc and Medis Technologies have accomplished?

HOCKADAY: They produced some very nice numbers in power performance. MTI MicroFuel Cells appear from photos to be separate cells wired together. They appear to have extended the work that went on at Los Alamos National Laboratory with methanol and water fuel. In the case of Medis Technologies it is now much clearer what they are doing, since we have been able to see their published patent applications.

The Medis El Patent applications are publishing now and many of the details are what we suspected. Their "magic" electrolyte ingredients appear to be sodium borohydride and potassium hydroxide. This is caustic and messy stuff, and it means their fuel will be gradually filled with a solid carbonate as it runs. In the past we considered using this fuel mixture in some of our unique fuel cells.

The last application we think is somewhat revealing is a hybrid battery/fuel cell (zinc, aluminum, and magnesium electrodes). We suspected something like this could be going on when we heard the results of the high open circuit voltages (greater than 1.5 Volts).

ANDERSON: Regarding Medis El, have you ever tried using this "magic" formula. And what do you think that their real problems will be in the future. I still believe they have not come up with a solution to the orientation problem. Also, what are your feelings concerning their highly electroconducting polymer and can you use any of what you have learned from this recent patent application in your designs.

HOCKADAY: We have in the past put methanol and sodium borohydride together on a catalyst and the methanol acts as an accelerant to the catalytic production of hydrogen. Our hypothesis at the time was the methanol was acting like an acid to lower the PH of the products. From simple reactant weights before and after, the methanol appears to be partially stripped of its hydrogen. In terms of energy per unit mass, water was a lower mass reactant with the sodium borohydride to make hydrogen, but the methanol reaction is much faster. We have not tested their mixtures shown in the patent application.

A basic problem is that the very alkaline electrolyte will form low solubility carbonates from the carbon dioxide produced and from the air that would be expected to fill the fuel cell electrodes. Changing the fuel or electrolyte would be expected to be messy. This is the same situation that the zinc air battery faces.

Another problem with these salt type electrolytes is that they can dehydrate or over hydrate depending on the surrounding relative humidity. When the cell's electrolyte excessively absorbs water from the surroundings it can flood the air electrode and leak out of the cell. The caustic electrolyte can corrode the surrounding equipment, clothing and skin. Or, if the electrolyte is dehydrated it can shrink the electrolyte and loose ionic continuity through the cell. This is a similar situation for alkaline batteries and zinc air batteries, and this is why they operate as nearly sealed systems.

This fuel, if not used, will evolve hydrogen. So, it will gradually lose its energy and some provision needs to be in place to vent the hydrogen, or chemically store it. At higher temperatures this hydrogen evolution is accelerated.

What we have attempted to do with our fuel ampoules is only produce vaporous fuels, such as hydrogen or methanol vapor, and the fuel does not alter the fuel cell. If a sodium borohydride fuel is used it is kept in the delivering ampoule. Thus, when fuel is changed the ampoules are switched out and any solid product goes with the ampoules.

I suppose Medis El might have a gravity problem if there is a bubble in their cell and the cell is placed such that the bubble prevents the electrodes from having continuous electrolyte between them.

In talking to someone who claimed to have studied under the Nobel Prize winner for conductive polymers, he suggested that the conductive polymer would be very sensitive to the chemical surroundings. So, the conductive polymers may not be very conductive in strong acids or bases. We tried some conductive polymers in simple fuel cell tests and did not see any significant improvement in current collection.

ANDERSON: Do you still feel your MicroFuel Cell has an advantages over these (MTI and Medis Tech) and other competitors and if so what are they?

HOCKADAY: Yes, we have quite a number of advantages. Particular advantages are:

1. Our geometry of producing fuel cells like printed circuits on robust dielectric substrates is much more amenable to mass production and flexibility to the applications from small to large systems.
2. By making the fuel supply and the fuel cell separate, the ampoules can be changed very easily, essentially without disturbing the fuel cell.
3. The fuel cells have many year lifetimes, independent of the fuel supply, currently we have a fuel cell that has been running continuously for over 430 days on methanol. There is a run time clock on the MHTX website for this fuel cell.
4. We are flexible on what fuel we use, hydrogen or methanol, and we have tried others. We operate on a very concentrated methanol fuel, the exact concentrations are proprietary, but I can say above 50% methanol.
5. Low cost fuels such as methanol alone can be used.
6. The electrolytes we are using are not degraded by contact with the atmosphere.
7. The thin sheet geometry of our fuel cells does allow us to configure them for high power per unit mass performance applications where we use air for cooling.
8. The fuel cell and the fuel supply can be easily valved off and allows for long term storage.
9. A variety of techniques are used in our fuel cells to optimize efficiency. Such as barrier layers in the electrolytes, and composite electrolytes. The electrode geometry can be designed and produced at the atomic scale, with our geometry and construction techniques, for optimum performance. Fuel delivery and product removal can be optimized. We have achieved 400 Watt*hr/kg using passive methanol fuel cells at ambient conditions. This is roughly twice that of the best Li-Ion batteries.
10. The methanol fuel cells in particular loose weight as they operate. This makes them lighter at the end of use.

ANDERSON: Do you still feel comfortable with your 'place' in the 'micro fuel cell race'? And with the advantages your company holds, do you feel that the company can still be able to capture a comfortable percentage of the micro fuel cell market in the future?

HOCKADAY: I am not very comfortable with our place in the micro fuel cell race. Our advantage appears to be that we are technically more sophisticated and advanced. I essentially tried to project the fuel cells to where I thought they should logically go and accomplished a technological leap. But, our competitors appear to be doing very nicely with the more basic features of fuel cells. My expectation is that eventually the market will shape what products will be acceptable, and a sort of market evolutionary pressure will push fuel cells to better suited geometries and systems.

ANDERSON: If you look at the micro fuel cell market as a race who do you feel is in the lead and why?
HOCKADAY: Toshiba. Resources and commitment.

ANDERSON: In the last interview you stated that you believed your MicroFuel Cell was ahead in the fuel packaging and delivery area. Do you still feel this is the case?

HOCKADAY: Technologically I believe we are more elegant and ahead.

ANDERSON: In the last interview you stated that much of your effort is now focused on the fueling system as how fuel is packaged, and that what fuel is used and how it is delivered to the fuel cells is a major determining parameter for how fuel cells enter the market. Has there been much progress in this fueling system effort?

HOCKADAY: Three of our patent applications for fueling ampoules are now published. We have been testing the endurance of diffusion delivery systems with time, temperature, and physical abuse. This is one of our very unique fuel delivery systems I hope the other fuel cell systems can use.

ANDERSON: What expectations do you have in increasing the capacity/longevity of your MicroFuel Cell and have there been any progress in the optimization of the catalyst deposition in the fuel cell arrays of your MicroFuel Cell over the past year?

HOCKADAY: We have been continuously, running a fuel cell to test its endurance, and searching and testing for better catalysts, electrolytes and substrates.

ANDERSON: What are the current problems holding back commercialization of your MicroFuel Cell and at what point will Manhattan Scientifics/Energy Related Devices deem the MicroFuel Cell "good enough" for commercialization?

HOCKADAY: Money, resources, and partnerships. When we produce a product that satisfies consumers it will be ready for commercialization.

ANDERSON: Has there been any progress in the production factory layouts presented to potential partners?

HOCKADAY: We have revised our production business plan several times to suit the anticipated needs.

ANDERSON: What are the major problems, aside from the financing, with getting a micro fuel cell facility up?

HOCKADAY: A hand built fuel cell may work great in the lab. But, the next big hurdle is to put that assembly process into a production mode. Little details like a drying step, for instance, can cause a big bottleneck in a production process. So, there is a tendency to push every step to be "instantaneous".

ANDERSON: Do you feel that Manhattan Scientifics could begin producing the micro fuel cell independently, or is a deep-pocket manufacturing partner absolutely required?

HOCKADAY: I think a deep-pocket manufacture is needed, for resources and experience. They typically already have distribution channels, too.

ANDERSON: Some shareholders think that Manhattan Scientifics should start manufacturing the micro fuel cell itself. Others would rather see Manhattan Scientifics partner with a "deep pocketed" manufacturer. What are your views on this subject?

HOCKADAY: If a niche customer places an order with us I believe we could build to order. But the long-range targets are the big markets of portable electronics, which are dominated by big companies. So I think it is most logical to partner or joint venture with a "big brother".

ANDERSON: Is Manhattan Scientifics continuing the cooperative effort with Mihama Corp?

HOCKADAY: Yes.

ANDERSON: Can you provide more details about this partnership?

HOCKADAY: I can only be vague, but typically we exchange emails on a daily basis. We have been testing materials from Japanese companies. Mihama Corporation has been working very hard to find and cultivate the appropreate relationships in Japan.

ANDERSON: Has this relationship furthered the development of the MicroFuel cell?

HOCKADAY: Yes. There is quite alot of activity regarding fuel cells in Japan, and many of the Japanese companies are gearing up for fuel cells usage in products.

ANDERSON: Lately there has been very little heard about the PowerHolster charger. Has the company given up on the idea of mass producing this or is it still in the works?

HOCKADAY: The general concept of a portable charger is still alive, but we have received feedback that continuous producing power devices would be very attractive to the new demanding electronics. More integrated hybrids may be attractive, too.

ANDERSON: If the company is still working on this, when can we expect to be able to purchase one?

HOCKADAY: It is difficult to estimate right now and depends on consumer demands.

ANDERSON: Can we expect to see the initial market penetration of the MicroFuel cell in a Powerholster or will it be in more power hungry products? Why and when?

HOCKADAY: I think a lot depends on the partners and the product targets. But the possibility is there to leapfrog to a new device that utilizes more features of fuel cells.

ANDERSON: Has the company opted for Biohydride over methanol?

HOCKADAY: No. It is just one of the possible fuel carrier options.

ANDERSON: Are you still working on both at this time?

HOCKADAY: Yes.

ANDERSON: Relating to the numerous patents that you hold on the MicroFuel Cell, will you and by association Manhattan Scientifics benefit by the competitors having to pay Manhattan Scientifics licensing fees for using technologies in their products, invented by and patented by you, or are their technologies totally separate from your concepts?

HOCKADAY: Yes. There is a royalty arrangement between Manhattan Scientifics and Energy Related Devices regarding MicroFuel Cells and Solar Cells.

ANDERSON: Is Energy Related Devices working on any other products besides advancing your MicroFuel Cell?

HOCKADAY: Yes. We are working on catalytic heaters, mercury free batteries, apparel products, solar cells and other alternative energy devices.

ANDERSON: There has been some criticism on some company message boards of your 144 filings over the past year. It is rumored that this is to fund research within Energy Related Devices. Can you or do you wish to comment on this?

HOCKADAY: Some of money from these sales has gone directly into supporting Manhattan Scientifics, and the rest has gone into the development of other products, I just mentioned.

ANDERSON: What are your thoughts on the move toward distributed energy and fuel cells in particular?

HOCKADAY: This is great and makes economic sense starting at the end of the distribution grids and beyond.

ANDERSON: What will this mean to natural gas utilities?

HOCKADAY: This may put the natural gas companies in the electric power business and competing with the electric utilities.

ANDERSON: Will it help their sales or will individual users turn to buying gas from marketers rather than via their utilities, which would hurt the utility?

HOCKADAY: I am not sure I understand the question. Do you mean Marketers would deliver gas independent of the utility pipeline, or it would be gas purchased independently of the utilty while still delivered down the same pipeline? Either way, I assume it would give the individual user more choices and hence more freedom of where and how they obtain electricity, and force gas utility companies into more competition. Ultimately having private marketers probably gives us more freedom of where we choose to live.

ANDERSON: Are they likely to use a different fuel than natural gas?

HOCKADAY: Natural gas is already installed in most places in this country. So it is convenient. I would be giving away secrets if I speculated on what's next.

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